Combustion Chamber meeting minutes 11 Nov 2019

LLC update

  • We will be making a second site visit to our prospect land this weekend, but this is still very preliminary.
  • Warehouse lease expires in one year, we’re starting to discuss renewing the WH lease and have no current plans to move.
  • Will be having our budget meeting with the AFs tomorrow.

AF update

No AFs present

Regional update

  • Burning Man exhibit in Oakland was underwhelming.
  • BMORG is still working on plans for their GLC successor.

What happens if Flipside is cancelled

  • Any cancellation would be due to an apocalyptic scenario, and would probably be very close to the event.
  • We have a lot of fixed costs, regardless of whether we hold the event.
  • So full refunds would probably be out of the question. So would free tickets for the following year.
  • We have discussed working with people who need their refund, but make the case to the community that we also need that money.

Site selection criteria

Existing criteria:

  • Needs to hold about 3000 people. 100+ acres.
  • Water feature if possible.
  • Shade if possible.
  • Landowners that can be good advocates for us in the county government.
  • Political environment needs to be amenable
  • Maintainable perimeter
  • Access to emergency services

No objections to the existing criteria, or suggestions for new ones.

Next meeting

  • CC mixer
  • Interpersonal incident FAQ Q&A (Kat)

CC Minutes – 1/28/19

This is the last one for now, consider this the eye of the minutes storm. There are more incoming from this year and previous years. Gratitude for your patience as we get this caught up.

Attendees: Henry, Clovis, Mayor of Flipside (for life) the Honorable Prost, bonobo, Sam Arnold, Gyesika Safety, Tommy Shultz, Bill Blome, Patrick “Problem” Boyd, Adam Rice, Bryan “Breezy” Frolick, Howard, Tim, Laura 

Facilitator: Bill Stackinator: Sam 

Agenda: standing agenda, and Town Hall walk thru 

● Introduced Laura as new scribe to group, and everyone went around and introduced themselves. Reviewed how meetings work – we discuss only ideas and proposals, not people. Say decorum if things are going too far afield. 

LLC update: (Problem) 

● Had a retreat last week for the AAR team in Wimberley. 

● As of tonight, the ticket window is closed. Will do opening sometime next month. Looking unlikely for a hard lottery 

● Biggest concern for this year is that there no longer any hospitals in Milam county, and how that impacts ambulance service. County is asking us to get a second ambulance. 

○ Because of this concern might not have the permit in time, and might have a soft lottery. 

○ Not so worried about the cost, but more getting the staff out there to staff the ambulances. 

○ Need to encourage people to do more self care – stay healthy and hydrated, drive yourself to the hospital or to get medical attention rather than using the ambulance. 

○ Concern came from the county commissioners, sheriff, and other elected officials in Milam county that are worried about the number of rides we used last year. 

Henry: the hospital in Taylor will probably be overwhelmed with visits from the surrounding areas, especially on a holiday weekend. Need to factor that into our thinking about this situation. 

● (Unsure who was speaking): Most of the visits last year were heat related; need to get folks to drink water, take care of themselves. 

Regional update: (Clovis) 

● Freezer Burn just happened, and Love Burn is going on right now. 

● Coordinating SXSW with Burning Man folks coming into town. Looking for some products and speakers – will put notices out to the community if they want something. Requiring our event reports right now back to the main organization. 

Henry: Are they setting up a booth or just attending? 

Clovis: They have people who are attending SXSW – Kim Cook will be here (she is in charge of all of the art at Burning Man). Also there will be communication people, ticket leads, and other folks. 

AF update: don’t have someone here to give an update. 

Bill: Got updates from 3 AFs so far, and can reach out to more of them before the town hall. 

Problem: the effigy has been picked and it will be announced at town hall. 

TOWN HALL WALK THRU: Prost (white boarding): Clovis got some emails on things to cover. Bill got a few requests for tables. 

Henry: Was asked by someone from Dallas to bring up this item…can a podcast be made of what is going on at Town Hall that can document (maybe stream) the event? 

Clovis: Could a set of minutes work? 

Problem: technology is there. But politically this is hard to do. 

Clovis: Could need someone to take minutes and post them. Not a lot of information is shared at the meeting. 

Bill: To help with community discussion and facilitate communication, can send out the minutes along with a list of the leads, and other people to contact if anyone has questions. 

Clovis: Can ask folks to post their own personal recap online. 

Gyesika: think recording is a can of worms we don’t want to open up. Probably don’t want to do that. 

Clovis: Shouldn’t have decided this so close to the event given how “sticky” it is. 

Henry: Was just asked to bring it up. 

● Will investigate getting someone to take minutes and post them online. 


● Welcome, Pledge, LNT – Tommy will be MC. 

● AAR Update (should only need 10 mins) 

● Ticket Update (5 mins, Michelle) 

● DAFT (6 mins, TBD) 

● Burnable Art & DMV (2 mins, Stephy) 

● Volunteering (2 – 3 mins, Tamara) 

● CC members (5 mins, Prost) 

● Work Weekends re announce the dates. (2 – 3 mins, Edie Cosmos) 

● Registration deadlines – (4 mins, Stephy or Mercedes) 

● Ignition Philter – looking for a jury, will pick that then. (XT) 

● Community announcements (TBD) 

● Closing (2 mins, Tommy) 

Discussion on agenda 

Clovis: could do art at the end? 

Gyesika: do art after DAFT? And before vol. 

Henry: with DAFT, when they come on stage…will how much space they will take up in the warehouse be discussed, and how much space is for other projects? 

Problem: discuss warehouse space with the WMs to reserve the space and make sure they have a place to do their projects. 

Ben: just discuss with WH management. Need to tell them about it. 

Clovis: need to discuss warehouse space with the management team, DAFT has first rights on the space. 

● Decided to put art right after DAFT. 

Remaining questions and discussion: 

Bill: haven’t been to a TH meeting in a while, do we have the WH manager stand up and talk about space? 

Problem: we have, but they usually come to the Fall TH. 

Bill: should we add that in? Should we not do it? 

Gyesika: do we want to announce the AFs and Leads? 

Adam: We announce them in the fall 

Clovis: the AFs can decide to come and discuss. 

Prost: We used to have everyone get up on stage, and introduce themselves, and discuss all topics. Went to a booth model so that people can get basic important info, and then go to the booths they are interested in. Don’t want to add too much back in to the overall presentation. 

Henry: there is no time keeping. 

Prost: tommy will be MC of the town hall, and can help keep things going. 

Problem: the effigy is designed, will have the design available for folks to look at the booth. Deadline for stickets. 

Clovis: will make sure clean up happens before town hall. Some stuff out in the warehouse is there is from freezer burn. Will make a call out before TH. 

Bill: how many tables are available for AFs to use? Total number requested so far is 6 or 7. Should talk about a vol pre-town hall event to make sure enough people are here to help with TH. 

Clovis: Believe we will have plenty. Don’t have an exact number. 

Prost: didn’t put a call out for vol for Fall TH, and there were enough to help. 

Henry: I will get here early, around 9 and start setting up shade structures for folks. 

Clovis: I will get here around noon. The theme camps will show up and then there will be lots of volunteers. 

Motion to close stack – Gyesika made motion, Bill second, Sam third. 

Prost: One more thing, need someone to help wrangle everything, and to keep people presenting when they need to. Bill will help with that, along with Clovis. 

Next CC meeting is 2/4 – TH after burn, and should the LLC pay to get more social media posts, more traffic/promotion. 

Gyesika: we can also announce that we need to do that at community announcements. 

Prost: Want to get the CC up and running again. Need to give that announcement at TH. 

Adam: CC forum is up and running. 

Tommy: was nominated to the CC right before life went a bit sideways. Health is taking a bit of a decline. Not going to flip side this year. Going to have to put in resignation. Will still be active, want to re-engage once things are turned around. 

Bill: who would like to facilitate the next meeting? I can do it again. 

Gyesika is stacking. 

CC Minutes – 2/4/19

Attendees: Sam Arnold, Patrick “Problem” Boyd, Adam Rice, Bryan “Breezy” Frolick, Bill Blome, Laura, Clovis, Gyesika 

Facilitator: Bill Stackinator: None 

Agenda: standing agenda, TH after burn, and should the LLC pay to get more social media posts, more traffic/promotion. 

LLC update: (Adam) 

● Will meet with our civil attorney as we do each time this year. Go over the waivers, survival guide, etc. Get comments in before next week for survival updates. Haven’t made changes in years, only a few things required by the landowner. 

● Had Town Hall – was well attended and people had a good time. Have a few open lead positions – echelon, guardian, and a handful of other positions that are less critical. 

Regional update: (Clovis) 

● No update. Same as last week all is good. Some regional events are working on a code of conduct, but the survival guide fills a similar role. 

Bill: It covers everything you should know. and outlines how to act. 

Sam: We tell everyone to go read the survival guide when they first come out 

Adam: Other events have the code of conduct, and the only things we aren’t doing in our survival guide are listing everything that can get you into trouble and what can happen to you if you do those things. 

Bill: Between the waivers, the disclaimers on the back of the ticket, and the other forms we cover everything that should be covered. 

Adam: The other codes usually are more explicit about consent issues. 

Bill: We will kick you out even if you signed a piece of paper. 

Adam: Having a code of conduct can reassure other community members that we do have a system in place to deal with bad behavior. 

Problem: Other events have set up a conduct committee to monitor the grievance process. We like to keep things closer to the vest for the protection of everyone involved. We don’t make a rule unless we have to make a rule. 

Bill: That’s not what we do here, we don’t like extra bureaucracy. The idea of radical self-reliance and that the community can come together and monitor the behavior of the members is our way. Work on it at a camp level, or a theme camp level. Like doing it this way. 

Adam: We do have a “trump” card in these situations, or an ace in the hole, where we repeat on the ticket and on the signs you see all over the event “You can be denied admittance for any reason or no reason.” 

AF update: Adam – Monthly AF meeting is a week from tomorrow. 

Remaining questions and discussion: 

Bill: Can we dovetail the AF updates into a discussion on town hall? 

Clovis: Yes. All of the AFs wanted their leads to speak at the last minute. Didn’t mind it. AFs/leads should be able to tell us what they want to communicate at the Town Hall Event to help schedule it ahead of time in the future. But even though it was last minute we still got done fairly quick, and were able to get everyone in. 

Bill: Felt it was fairly concise. 

Clovis: We ran just over an hour, and then a couple of hours of socialization. 

Adam: I thought it went really well. Not sure how successful it was for volunteer recruitment. Not sure everyone heard the messages they needed to hear. 

Bill: Prior years we might have had more volunteer recruitment – actively engaged the people who came to TH. 

Clovis: Shaven apes handed out stickers. City planning recruits internally. 

Problem: Genesis is a more volunteer area. 

Clovis: Not sure how successful it is to recruit for May event in Feb. 

Problem: Most department don’t need help this early. DAFT is one. 

Should we pay FB to get our message out? 

Problem: Last year our ave post in 2018 had 2337 people see it. So far this year in 2019, its 944. This year only 810 saw the ticket post. 3187 saw it last year. 

Bill: Does anyone have experience with FB ads and using them? (Group said no). I do, and what I can say is that for what we need, we wouldn’t need to spend a lot of money and it would be effective. Seems like we shouldn’t throw down money before we try a system to help get the word out organically. Can we identify 12 people or 20 people that would commit to sharing messages to the Flipizens page organically? 

Adam: CC members maybe? 

Bill: We could test it now until Flipside and see if it makes a difference. 

Problem: Would like to get people more involved and make our own “algorithm” and maybe only use FB for the ticket posts. We should boost posts so that they hit more people that like our pages. Let’s try and work around FB than with them at this point. 

Adam: Philosophically opposed to FB, only a member to communicate with the community. Don’t want to give them money. Believe that when you pay for ads you get all kinds of info about the people. 

Bill: You have to pay extra for it. 

Adam: That seems like a slippery slope. There is an additional level of creepiness that you can get when you pay FB money. 

Problem: We already get info from FB on the people who interact with our posts. 

Adam: Another thing that crosses my mind, is that people are drifting away from FB – people don’t look at it anymore. Some people are moving to Instagram. 

Clovis: Lots of people are on instagram. 

Adam: Maybe we can republish content from FB, twitter and to instagram. Maybe we can use the envelope pics on instagram. 

Bill: That almost opens a bigger discussion – the nature of social media tools is that they will all ebb and change over time. 

Problem: Communication tools in general are the same way. Email is kinda dead unless you are doing business. Lots of businesses now use Slack. 

Clovis: The list style. 

Adam: Trying to keep up is like Whack a Mole. In AAR – had discussions about building our own APP to get info out to the community. Also could give everyone an “@flipside” email address to get information out. The social media aspect is only one part of the problem. 

Sam: It might be a good idea to use the envelope art, and other art, to help distinguish different messages. On the Website right now, all the messages all have the big Flipside graphic on it for all of them. 

Problem: For a while the site would pick a graphic to go with a post, and sometimes it wasn’t appropriate. Sometimes offensive images were uploaded and then shared out to the community by accident. 

Clovis: Do we have a social media lead? No? 

Adam: It’s under content, and our lead does WordPress for her day job. She’s really good at it. 

Problem: Was hoping that the shock value of the discussion being about social media and paying FB money would entice people to come to the meeting. I see every post our FB site does, and I can see how many people we are currently reaching versus how many we could reach with paying for ads. 

Gyesika: Is this how I get Nomads? 

Adam: A guy did a prank once to make the ads so specific so that only one person would ever see them. 

Bill: Once you start filtering by zip code, you can get super specific in how you want to target the ads. It could be something like males, in this zip code, who like cats, and so on. Most people usually don’t do that when they do ads because you want a large audience. 

Problem: $10 for ads will not get us much. 

Bill: I will vol to send an email to the CC list this week trying to motivate some coordinated sharing of the key posts. 

Problem: There have been 10 or so emails to the ticket lead saying they didn’t see the emails about the ticket window. 

Sam: I saw multiple posts about the tickets. 

Clovis: There are always people who don’t pay attention. We could do a phone tree and still have some people we miss. 

Problem: We only have 510 people following us on FB. 

Adam: Let’s wrap this topic up and move onto other topics. 

CC Business 

Clovis: Found us a photographer for photos if we want to do that. 

Bill: That sounds like a good idea – (Gyes and Sam are in favor.) Do you want to send an email to the list? 

Clovis: I’ll send an email to the group. 

Adam: Can I make a suggestion? When you see someone who needs a pic, just take a pic with a smartphone. 

Gyes: Something I did for Freezer burn, was to upload photos to a website to make “wanted” posters of everyone. 

Adam: The difficult part about photos is getting them all done because everyone isn’t always together at the same time. We can accept lower quality photos so that we can get everyone’s photo by using phones. 

Gyes: What topics are for next time? 

Adam: Review how safety departments work, and reduce medical transports through self-care. Oh I see what the problem is – I was looking at March. 

Problem: Education update and reporting interpersonal incidents are on agenda for next time. 

Sam: I see the same thing. 

Clovis: Someone needs to get ahold of (didn’t get name) – send it to Misti and she will make him show up. I will try all of the methods of getting ahold of someone. 

Bill: I’ll facilitate next week, and let’s sign up Prost for stackinator. I enjoy signing him up for stuff. 

Adam: March 18 meeting – review how safety departs support the community and reduce medical transports through self-care. 

Clovis: Need to get some of the AFs and leads involved. 

Adam: Izzy owns safety departments and I own self-care. 

Clovis: We should post these topics on FB, and then pay to promote it and then add in the social media topic. 

Bill: It is important to have non-CC folks show up to discuss the interpersonal policy. 

Move to close meeting by Bill. Adam second, Gyes third, meeting done. 

CC Minutes – 2/18/19

Attendees: Sam Arnold, Patrick “Problem” Boyd, Adam Rice, Bryan “Breezy” Frolick, Bill Blome, Laura, Clovis, Henry, Mayor of Flipside (for life) the Honorable Prost, Cooper, Izzi, Katrina, Mary, Seph, Susan 

Facilitator: Bill Stackinator: Sam 

Agenda: standing agenda, Edjumication, Reviewing the process for reporting interpersonal incidents 

• Bill explained the rules of the meeting, that we are respectful, and that we give our names to the stack and go in order. 

• For any votes, only the LLC members can vote. 

• Izzi requested that Edjumication be covered before the reporting discussion. The group agreed to this topic order. 

LLC update: (Problem) 

● Meet with lawyers – reviewed waivers, new case law, survival guide. Survival guide should be wrapped up shortly, right after ticket opening. 

● We have a mass event permit, so probably won’t have a soft lottery. 

● Sam has asked for permission to post minutes – Prost has access. Should discuss that during CC business. 

AF Updates: (Susan) 

• Had our first work weekend – got through 4 brush piles but have 12 more. Should dig out some of the culverts under the walk ways because they are getting blocked. Roads are in pretty good shape. 

Adam: Standing water? 

Susan: It was great – not a lot of water everywhere. Safety looks dry, passage to the corral is soft but not soggy. 

Problem: Daft has started – work days are Wed and Thurs after 6PM, and Sunday at noon. There is a mild concern from DAFT, the lead did an inventory, and some Ryobi batteries have gone missing. If anyone sees/knows anything, please let someone know. About 6 batteries are missing since Nov. Sticket contest has ended – will get in touch with people on the results very soon. Art project and theme camp registrations are open. 

Adam: the registration closes 4/1. Art car or event closes 4/17, 

Regional update: (Clovis) 

• Broken Springs is coming up, Corpus had a beach clean-up. Burning Man meet and greet is coming up March 9th, 5 – 9 PM. El Mercado South. Low income ticket window opened, go apply right now. Price went up but the number available is larger.\ 

Katrina: Have you seen any responses to the price changes in the Burning Man community, and how they are trying to stop commodification? 

Clovis: Mostly positive reaction to all of the changes. Have us listed as an official burn to get into their calendar. 

Edjumication: (Izzi, Seph) 

Izzi: Edjumication traditionally focuses on newbie topics (how to attend flip side, etc). This year want to expand the reach of the Ed and have classes here at the warehouse on topics that the community wants to learn about; this is a more comprehensive effort to help educate and tutor the community. Seph is the lead. 

Seph: Will rely heavily on computers to organize things, find teachers to teach things, and students to learn things, and bring them together here to learn. 

Henry: What kinds of topics? 

Seph: Anything anyone wants to teach. Try to avoid anything too controversial, as the focus is on learning useful skills and not a podium. 

Henry: So not a TED talk for burners? 

Seph: Trying to avoid that at first, and have folks learn a skill or come out with new knowledge. Hopefully that is what this can start out as, and then could turn into maybe more TED Talk like later on. 

Izzi: Wanted Seph to come to the meeting to get feedback from the community on the idea. We don’t expect the teacher to cover the cost of any materials, but the classes are free to everyone. Won’t charge for classes. 

Seph: A few possible topics to cover are power tool training, someone wants to teach dog training, how to buy your first home, Ableton, fixing a generator, getting your car out of mud. Have a test form out there to gather student feedback on what they want to learn, and then circulate those requests around the community to find teachers. 

Henry: Would the class be here at the warehouse, or at a given place? 

Seph: Mostly here at the warehouse, could be elsewhere. Would like to start here. 

Henry: For example, if someone wanted to teach a tree identification class, that might need to be held outside? 

Seph: Want to connect the students and teachers, open up the Warehouse doors and let them do whatever they want. 

Bill: I think it’s a great idea and could have a lot of flexibility. Am I correct that this is under the official Edjumication lead? 

Seph: I would like to request, or ask, if can I change the name to education? 

Izzi: I would like to see it maintain the more traditional things that happen at flip side – how to get together a theme camp, project management for artists, burner charm school or burner 101. 

Bill: Yes, like how to negotiate camp boundaries with your new neighbors. 

Izzi: Or how to use your safety teams. 

Prost: You are working on online forms? 

Seph: I need to determine how I can move the forms to the flip side website. 

Prost: We should tell folks to come and talk to you, or to email – 

Seph: I hopefully will have a link on the site soon that will make it much easier. 

Bill: Awesome thanks for the update. 

Incident Reporting Process 

Cooper: There is a link to the process on the website, under policies. There has been a significant increase in the number of incident reports in the last few years. Adam wrote the policy as an FAQ to help address the issues, and to make sure the policy was being explained clearly and that all questions/concerns about the policy were addressed. So, the first item I wanted to know if everyone knew that the policy was there on the site, and then go over the policy. (Cooper wrote on the white board – FACTA as the acronym for the policy) 

Cooper: F – First Hand Reports. The foundational principal of the policy is that it relies only on First Hand Reports. We (the LLC) don’t respond to social media, we don’t look to FB for reports to act on. Instead, we do review posts that come to our attention and will reach out to individuals to encourage first hand reports, and to come forward. 

Cooper: A – AAR LLC/Accountable. we consider all reports and then decide to act or not. 

Cooper: C – Confidential. The reporter and the decision are kept private. There is a denial of entry list. We control access to the Warehouse, the official events. Can’t control other spaces. 

Cooper: If you witness something, you can report it and then we will dig into it. But we need to talk to the people directly involved. Always remember we can decide to boot anyone at any time for any reason or for no reason. 

Cooper: T – Talk about this more. If you meet new burners, new people to the community, or if something comes up. Remind everyone that this process exists and is very important. 

Cooper: A – Anywhere. The incident can happen outside the event, or anywhere. The reports should be given to the LLC. When we get a first-hand report, we have a discussion with the person who reported it, and also talk to any other first-hand witnesses. The LLC then considers everything and makes a decision. The person who is reported also has a chance to talk to the LLC about the incident. Once the decision is made, the reporter and the subject of the report are given direct communication about the decision. 

● Where we can’t control things, or ensure privacy, is in the realm of social media. Not only is that not something the LLC can control or influence, but the LLC will never discuss or post anything related to an incident on any type of social media. 

Izzi: There is an LLC member at every event, and you can go to a safety team and say I need to talk to an “Actual”. If you find yourself in a situation where you can’t report until after the event, anyone can email us: Can also reach out to each individual LLC member via the website; click on the member and then there is a form that is presented and sent to that member. 

Adam: Anyone with a 2-way radio can raise an Actual. If someone is traumatized, it can be hard to make a report at the event. There is no problem with reporting later on and the team is there to help as much as possible. 

Katrina: Remember that the F doesn’t stand for Facebook. If someone is making a report, or writing out their report on Facebook, be a good member of the community and point them to the policy and help them directly contact the LLC so that they can make a first-hand report and the LLC can respond to it. 

Bill: This sounds like a good legal process, and a sound approach. How is it working? Is there anything else that the CC can do to help with this process? 

Cooper: It takes a lot of time to do this process and requires a lot of follow up. We thought about some type of delegation, or a splitting up of the responsibilities. But the LLC is responsible for the decisions, so need to handle the reports with the full group. One area where we are currently struggling is that there may be incidents at other events, and people might assume that the decisions taken at those events should apply across all events. 

Adam: There is always the issue of people not knowing about the process, but overall, we think things are going well. We are interested in getting feedback – is the FAQ not covering all needed topics? I have a question that needs answering and it isn’t there? There are some people who might read it and not get what it is about, hopefully not too many people like that. Can’t go into details about how individual situations are handled, and we understand that everyone has a different angle on what happened. We emphasize that this reporting process is not a judicial process, and we are trying to protect our own liability and protect the integrity of the community. 

Problem: I disagree with Adam a little bit on this – there is an impression out there in the community that the LLC doesn’t do anything about reports and that is false. We have a denial of entry list, and it has grown much larger in the recent past. Reporting is difficult enough but having an impression that the LLC won’t do anything makes it much harder. We have acted on this issue since I’ve been on the board, and we’ve had a denial of entry list since I’ve been on the board. 

Adam: There was 1 case where we followed the process and decided not to take any action. 3 cases where we couldn’t follow the process – someone moved out of TX and had no phone. Also had a few cases where the reporter gave a report, and then didn’t communicate back to the LLC and we couldn’t complete the process. But the vast majority of reports are fully reviewed, and a decision is made. 

Katrina: There is a good deal of mis-information about this process. For example, that if something happened somewhere else the LLC won’t do anything, or if there isn’t a police report LLC won’t do anything. This false information does damage and makes the process harder and might make it harder for people to report. These things are definitely not true for the current LLC. 

Mary: Can we share the no entry list with other burns? Or forward the reports? 

Problem: We asked our lawyers about it, but if we start sharing this information with other events then we take on additional liability if something happens. The lawyers have advised us not to share our information. We are trying to figure out a way to share information without increasing liability. 

Henry: If somebody has something happen to them, and they go to another event that person should report it to the other event? 

Problem: That is something we are thinking about doing but doing it in a way that doesn’t increase our liability. 

Henry: Can folks get names on who to contact at the other events about reports? 

Adam: Yes. The tricky part of it is that each event’s board determines what is enough information for a report. What we can do is provide a list of names at the other events that someone should make a report too. 

Seph: Can other events request our reports, and do we share them? 

Problem: They can ask but we do not share them. The issue is that if we ban someone for something serious, or for a minor infraction. Now all of the people are labeled as “banned” regardless of severity. We aren’t a court of law, and we aren’t trying to determine legal facts. If we publish that or share the reports, it opens up more liability. Us keeping the list secret means that we will put more people on it. 

Seph: What if a person reports something, and they check a box that says, “you can share this email.” And all the events have to go out to some type of central list and find the reports/emails? 

Problem: We must store the information somewhere, and if something gets deleted, or lost, then we can be liable. Forwarding email along is easy to do, but things can go wrong. 

Seph: You have a list, and you push out changes. You don’t notify them of updates. 

Problem: Seems like we have the same liability even in that approach. 

Katrina: The biggest concern is the vulnerability of emails, and how to ensure that only the right people see the information. Membership in these events, and leadership of the events changes frequently so it makes it much more likely that someone is on a group email when they shouldn’t be. We want to give agency back to the person who made the report, and we would like to find a way to give the person the ability to send the report to other events easily and without having to rewrite things, and so on. Then the person is empowered to make the decision about their information. 

Henry: What if the person reports something, the LLC can advise the person that they might want to make a first-hand report at other regional events. I hate that it’s all on the victim to make all the reports, but it seems like the only way to ensure privacy and give the victim agency over what happened. 

Adam: One thing as a practical matter – reporters aren’t going to use one method to contact the LLC. They use email, personal discussions, email, talk at events, and so on. Once, the LLC got a second-hand report from someone who felt that something should be reported, but they weren’t involved in the incident. Had to work very hard to try and get the victim to confirm the report. We didn’t handle the situation very well and didn’t make the best decision we could have in that situation. By handling second hand information, we are making the impression, or implication, that someone needs to act when it should be up to the person directly involved in the incident. 

Clovis: The BM list was just discussing this, that email systems are used to discuss things between LLCs. Is there informal communication between events/boards? 

Adam: We don’t do that, and we don’t share information like that. We must live by our own rules, no second-hand reports. 

Katrina: That is what we must do, and it is hard. 

Adam: There is one TX event where when you sign their waiver you agree to let them share report information with other events. We must tell them we don’t want it because of first-hand reports. 

Bill: Cooper is there anything else you want to discuss? 

Cooper: Nope I think we covered everything. 

Bill: Thanks for explaining everything to us, and this discussion helps drive home the importance of the first-hand reports. 

Katrina: Did everyone feel like you got the answers you wanted? We were told previously that we were too defensive. 

Bill: It’s a touchy subject, and we get it. We use the LLC term all the time, and we can forget that one of the letters stands for Liability. 

Seph: Sounds to me like you are pushing this as far forward as you can, without crossing a legal line. 

Izzi: Thanks for that feedback. 

Bill moved to close stack on the issue, Clovis 2nd. 

CC Business: 

Izzi: Who has access to the website to post minutes? 

Prost: Sam is willing to post the minutes, so he should have access. I do use the access twice a year to get CC nominations and get a scribe. 

Cooper: Do you both need access? 

Prost: Yes, that’s what I would like. 

Problem: OK, just don’t want everyone on the CC having access. 

Izzi: The minutes go out to the entire CC list, for review before they get posted. 

Problem: I’ve never seen anyone read the minutes. 

Izzi: If I have to vote on them, I read them. 

Prost: New CC members. The form has been open for a couple of weeks now and have 1 new recruit. Someone is moving here from South Africa, been to burning man. I did put together a blurb for an official announcement. I can reach out and amend the announcement to try and get more people nominated. We aren’t in a rush. 

Next meeting 3/18/19: Facilitator – Clovis Stack – Gyes nominated, but Bill will cover if needed. Agenda for next meeting: How safety departments support the community, encouraging better self-care at the event. 

CC Minutes – 3/18/19

Attendees: Sam Arnold, Patrick “Problem” Boyd, Adam Rice, Bryan “Breezy” Frolick, Laura, Clovis, Henry, Mayor of Flipside (for life) the Honorable Prost, bonobo, Doc Holiday, Citizen, Molly 

Facilitator – Prost Stackinator – Sam 

• Prost explained the rules of the meeting 

• Everyone can speak, but we speak in turn. Sam keeps the list of who wants to speak and will call your name when it is your turn. 

• Speak with respect, talk about processes not people. 

• For any votes, only the LLC members can vote but everyone’s input is valued. 

Agenda: standing agenda, Reducing Medical Transport Through Self Care, How the safety department supports the community 

LLC update:(Adam) 

• Met with Kit the landowner this week, and the lease should be signed this week. Patrick observed that the LLC has 8 more meetings before Flipside – lots to do before the event. 

Problem: New trailer was broken into, the people took a pry bar and got into it. Hoping that we can get the trailer to its permanent home soon so that we don’t need to discuss getting security cameras again. 

Henry: Did the thieves get the license plate inside? 

Problem: Only took a spool of wire from the trailer. Left lots of other more valuable stuff in there. 

o Want to remind everyone that the closer we get to the event, the harder it is to 

take any action in regard to anyone that someone in the community doesn’t want to attend. 

Adam: As we have said before on this subject, when we felt backed into a corner with a previous situation and only had 2 weeks before Flipside we didn’t handle the situation very well. We won’t do that again. So need to bring forward any concerns or first hand reports sooner rather than later. 

AF Updates: Problem: 

• There was a work weekend this weekend and it went well. 

• DAFT is in full swing, and the team still needs more people. Anyone who wants to help and learn new tools can come by, and also got new tools. 

• Ticket entry is open and a few people have complained about a few bugs, but everything has worked out very well. 

• Survival guide is at the printers. 

Prost: I think you meant the ticket process is complete, and people got their “will call” email notifications. 

Problem: Yes, that’s what I meant. 

Regional update: (Clovis) 

• Had a regional meet and greet, and it went pretty well. Large crowd and a lot of new- comers. 

• UBS was this last weekend, and everything went well. 

• Recent hot issues: Vogue fashion shoot, where a clothing designer reused art from Burning Man. 

o Got permission for a lot of it, but not all of it. o The thing I was most put off by it was some piece that looked like Temple 

writings on parchment clothes. o Should have gotten permission before making commercial products. 

• Jennifer Riser was there at the Fashion Show and covered it as her part-time job; she wasn’t there to represent BM. 

o I trust her intent, and I trust the artists intent, but he still should have gotten 

permission for everything he used. o BM put out a press notice about it. 

• Talk about a new GLC and haven’t heard more about it. 

• Alamoburn is in 3 weeks. 

Reducing Medical Transport: Adam: First off, want to set expectations to the broader community for our medical situation. 

• We did have 18 medical transports in 2018. 

• The hospital in Rockdale had 5 beds, and last year they called us and said don’t send anyone else. 

• There is a small hospital in Taylor, with 6 beds. As there are no longer any hospitals in Milam county, this small hospital is serving that large area. 

• The closest large hospital is in Round Rock – and that will be a two hr. round trip. 

• We are going to have 2 ambulances this year at FS, and it’s a lot of money. 

• Some people do self-transport, and the LLC appreciates that as an ambulance isn’t taken out of service. 

• We don’t want to begrudge anyone the use of the ambulance, but self-transport is helpful overall. 

• In 2018, it was super-hot and humid, and the medical transports weren’t directly heat related, but the heat made things worse. 

• At my second FS, I got up and went straight into action without a shirt on…didn’t have any sunblock and didn’t put any on all day. I went to bed that night with purple skin. 

• When you see someone doing something that might be inappropriate for the heat and sun conditions, check in with them. 

• And everyone should be open to those comments; if someone says to you “hey you are overdoing it”, maybe listen to them and drink water, go get in shade, take it easy. 

Henry: I encourage people around me to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. And encourage people to cool off, go find shade, take it easy. 

• I am going to go around with extra bottles of water and pass them out. 

• The community needs to help PETs as much as we can to help stop things from becoming serious. 

• Is it PETs or Rangers who give maps to people going to the hospitals? 

Doc: The rangers will help people get directions. 

Adam: We don’t have anyone handing out paper maps to anyone, just giving helpful directions. 

Sam: Question – is the hospital situation mentioned in the Survival guide this year? 

Adam: No, it is not. 

Doc: Can we put it in the Flame? 

Adam: Yes, we can do that. 

Prost: If you see someone who isn’t taking care of themselves and they need encouragement to drink water remember that self-reliance is one of our principals as well as being a part of the community. 

• We could encourage theme camps to keep a water cooler there for whoever needs cool drink? Just put ice in a chest and leave it there all day. 

Problem: The whole county doesn’t have any hospitals at all and only 3 ambulances, which is why we got two of our own. 

• Please take care of yourselves and help each other. If you need to transport someone to the hospital, we can arrange a free in and out pass. 

• Also, can let you back in after hours if you are taking someone to the hospital. Talk to PETs. 

• You don’t pay any ambulance fees, we take care of that. But you have to pay any fees assessed by the hospital. It’s cheaper to go in a personal vehicle. 

Doc: To add to the people pushing too hard, Rangers are specifically trained to communicate in a friendly way and help facilitate communicate with these people. 

• If there are situations where people are overdoing it and aren’t listening to helpful advice, we would like to know about it and help with them. 

• In regard to last year, it was a 105 heat index the entire weekend…the Ice Tent had an aluminum structure last year and it made a 20-degree difference. 

• Even the Vols got over heated, and people out in the effigy field and greeters also got overheated because they didn’t have a shade structure. 

Henry: I have a shade structure I can share with everyone. 

Problem: We do have a few shade structures for everyone to use. 

Laura: Something my husband and I did last year, is we brought electrolyte popsicles. Whenever we went walking around, we had a small cooler and passed them out. Almost everyone we offered one to took it and was very grateful for the cool treat. 

Henry: I brought a cooler with a large shammy in it that was in the water and would drape it over people and help them cool down. 

Doc: Could thermal shock make them want to go to sleep? 

Henry: It dropped their core temp very quickly and helped them. 

Prost motioned to close stack, and Citizen second. 

Review of Safety Depts and the Community: Doc: I am a Ranger LT, and I coordinate stuff on Burn night. 

• I have my own views on safety, and I am passionate about it. I wanted to see what would be discussed about safety. 

• Heard feedback on UBS and the medical situation and wanted to talk about it tonight. 

• UBS didn’t have a standing medical department, and instead had a free form medical team/response. Everything I heard is second hand as I didn’t attend the event. 

• As far as safety departments in general for FS, do we have our Fire Chief? 

Problem: Yes – its Trigger. 

Adam: There is an email for the safety departments that have everyone on it. 

• I don’t know what Izzi’s purpose was for this topic was, but it was partly to set expectations about what the departments do and what they don’t do. 

• Need to take care of your own safety needs first, and then fall back to the safety teams if things are beyond your capabilities. 

• Rangers are not police, and the sound people aren’t there to turn down other people’s music. 

• PETS are not there for every stubbed toe. 

Henry: Firemen aren’t going to stomp on your Poi. 

Problem: They are there to help people out when they really need it, but everyone needs to take care of themselves. 

Henry: I can answer what the Firemen do. We pull shifts and drive around to make sure everyone’s fires/campfires are safe, etc. 

• We don’t come up to a camp unless there is an issue, or someone reported something. 

• We also help with any artistic fire demonstration/etc. 

Doc: Rangers are there to help people do things and facilitate – help you find the bathroom. 

Clovis: They have been known to confiscate pancakes. 

Doc: Those were important pancakes. They are there to help, not be police and monitor behavior. 

Molly: I would like to know more about Sanctuary because I’ve never done it before, and would like to help with it this year. 

Citizen: Sanctuary is there to help with any mental health crisis. 

• I am not Sanctuary LT, but we are there to provide ground assistance and help people get back to having fun and have the experience they want to have. 

• It’s also there for Vols and to help them debrief and enjoy the event as well. 

Problem proposed closing the stack on this topic, and Prost seconded. 

Prost: Molly and I went to UBS, and they had a rainy event where things in the parking lot were really wet. It wasn’t a Freezerburn level rain event. 

• It’s only a 400-person event, and when we were that size didn’t have a dedicated PETs team. Have to remember that some events are smaller and doing the best they can with their community. 

Henry: They had 3 medical people last year. 

Prost: Seemed like it ran pretty well, and the board member I know didn’t seem stressed about the situation. 

Problem: Trying to judge smaller burns, and how big their vols are, isn’t really appropriate. 

• For us, if there is actual a problem, then let’s handle it. 

• But let’s remember that smaller burns are trying to build their communities and have appropriate levels of vols. 

Prost: I would recommend everyone go to a smaller burn to experience a tiny FS. 

CC Business: 

Molly: I came to get more info about the community and learn ways to get more involved. 

Citizen: There is a sanctuary social this week, will send you the info. 

Henry: What happened with candidates for CC members? 

Prost: Got 1 candidate and will set up a time to interview that person. Will open it up again after FS. 

Clovis: We can just impress people like the British did in the 1800s. 

Next meet is April 22, after tax day. Will discuss Stickets, and should FS sponsor a temple in 2020 and beyond. 

Facilitation – Clovis Stackinator – ??? 

CC Minutes – 6/10/19

Hey Flipsters! We have a scribe again, which means we can have CC Minutes again. To celebrate, enjoy these hot fresh minutes from the Flipside AfterBurn Meeting, which took place back on June 10th of this year.

More minutes incoming! So many minutes! Take cover and bunker in place!

Attendees: Sam Arnold, Patrick “Problem” Boyd, Adam Rice, Bryan “Breezy” Frolick, Bill Blome, Laura, Clovis, Henry, Mayor of Flipside (for life) the Honorable Prost, Izzi, Kataluna, Blanche, Tim A, Han, Tim M, Dale, RD, Brently, Liv, Wrinn 

Facilitator – Bill Stackinator – Sam Scribe – Laura 

Burning Flipside Afterburn Prost: this is an open topic to discuss the good and bad of Flipside. 

Clovis: any failure points, like the LLC? 

Kataluna: What? We are not… 

Adam: We did get out our information report already on the Website already. Don’t want to sit here and read that, but we can discuss any questions or anything anyone feels isn’t covered. 

Problem: 3% of tickets didn’t show up, fairly low. 2650 people showed up. 4 total medical transports, which is half of last year. 

Blanche: And it wasn’t muddy!! 

Kataluna: I’ll take it and I enjoyed. 

Henry: There was a lot of confusion about which direction the roads went. Some people removed the signs, or bypassed the greeters, and then people couldn’t tell what direction to go. 

Kataluna: I saw that on Thurs night, and I was confused about which way to go. I saw a city planning person moving the sign to get it in the right spot. 

Henry: Several of the short cuts were very helpful. 

Problem: Suggested buying commercial grade one-way signs. 

Brently: Suggestion – gel safety covers for the carts that are different than everyone else. 

Kataluna: I liked the signs for the tops of the carts, which helped identify what the carts were there for. 


• Kudos to city planning for their messages this year about RVs, helped explain that really well. Covered all kinds of vehicles – vans, campers, etc. 

• Kudos to AAR for sending out a message about the rain we got and that we might cancel, which is great. The message saying the event was on might have gone out, I just didn’t see it. 

• I heard complaints about the roads and which way they were supposed to go; probably a signage problem. 

• We did have a mixer – we had 4 CC members and 1 community member Linda show up. Very glad that things are continuing the way they are, don’t want to change things. 

• The effigy didn’t get open until Sat, and this isn’t the first one to wait that long. Would like DaFT to take a hard look at why it happened, and what can the community/org can do to help next time. 

• Really appreciated the post-event report, it’s the 21st flipside but it’s the 22nd event. 

Henry: I noticed that the greeters were getting people to volunteer when it was their first-time at the event, and they don’t know what to expect when they volunteer there. Maybe there should be a broadcast, online video, that can explain everything about Flipside and volunteering for the first-time person. 

Bill: Continuing on volunteering, and this has been a hot topic of discussion post-Flip Side. I felt like the energy was really good this year. I’m sure there were hiccups happening, but I saw a lot of people helping each other out, and a lot of formal and informal volunteering happening. I missed the weekend after for the cleanup weekend but would like to hear from Clovis about it. Outside of maybe tweaking a few things, I would like to say that the volunteering community is alive and kicking even if they need some extra poking. 

Blanche: On the volunteering thing, I lost something of significant value that was turned into Echelon and by the time I got back it was missing. 

Kataluna: Are you sure it happened after it was in Echelon? 

Blanche: My friends found that I left something on their cart and turned it into Echelon. I got the item back, but when I looked inside of it the valuable thing was gone and my friends said the valuable thing was in there when they turned it in. Need to review who has access to what, like Echelon. 


• For the vast majority of the event, we were on top of things in terms of volunteers and things running as they should. 

• There were a few problematic areas: hard to get IT support folks, medics for the events, and the guardians shifts were hard to fill. There were a few low shifts, but mostly covered. 

• The big problem was post-weekend on site. At the warehouse, we had a ton of people to help unload trucks. It was really out onsite having enough people to help clean up, and we needed about 20 more people helping with that. 

• If you know someone who can do medical, or can help with radios, or can do guardian shifts those are the ones we struggle with. 

• I’m glad everyone has enthusiasm around volunteering, but don’t put a bunch of solutions in place in search of a problem. 


• I think the volunteering problem the weekend afterwards for clean-up was a bit worse than before. 

• Messaging channels sucks, no one reads emails. 

• When it’s after the event, it’s harder to get people onsite. The same people keep coming out year after year – and some people want to skip a year. And the people coming out are getting older and can’t move as quickly as they did before. 

• It was light, but it was doable but hard. We got out of there at a reasonable hour, but still a bit late. 

Clovis: I agree with Wrinn. The social media aspect sucked this year, and lots of messages about getting out to the land for clean-up showed up three days after it was over. I didn’t want to shame anyone with my post, I just wanted to get everyone’s attention on it. 

Han: We had 50% more vols than we needed; and we wanted to send them off to other departments that might need people “Greeters, Guardians.” 

Sam: Volunteer squad would like to hear about that. 

Han: I would like to get the word out there. 

Blanche: What if we had a post department? 

Kataluna: We do have one. 

Blanche: This is my 6th Flip Side and I didn’t know that. 


• Flip Side is organized to be a servant leadership model, so that everyone can get a chance to lead and do things. 

• We had 6 new AFs and leads this year, and so new people are learning how to do things. People did a great job. 

• When an AF steps down, then the people who volunteer with that person also usually step down. It’s not a terrible problem, because the new people will grow their teams and develop people. 

• The volunteer problem wasn’t any worse this year, and people are working on it and building up the teams. 

Problem: There are a couple of things we are experimenting with: 

• One is a central volunteer app. The app will be one place to see all the shifts that are available, and folks can sign up there. 

• When you fill out the forms on the Website, you get an answer back from the leads/AF team to help get people into volunteering. 

Wrinn: Congrats to the fire clean-up crew, did a great job cleaning up things after the burns. 

RD: • I’m usually the first truck out with the effigy in it – and I usually coach the DAFT lead to 

spend the time directing the volunteers to do productive things rather than standing around and tripping over themselves. 

• Because we’ve had a smaller group before, and fewer strangers before, those relationships help drive the tasks and keep people productive. It’s not practical to have 1 person manage the site here, drive out, and then manage the site there. 

• I said we should load DAFT on Friday night, and that was a good thing to help get things going. 

• The lead of DAFT is a big job – you have to project manage people, the project, and help be creative and design the effigy. We need more structure to help scale. 

Blanche: I joined FU telecom this year, and XXXX is committed to working with Flipside to help provide more telecom for safety, and anything the community needs. Letting him know what we want to do with the phones earlier rather than later, is appreciated and XXXX is willing to do what is asked. 


• As someone who stepped down as an AF this year, the person who ran it this year did a great job (better than I did). 

• Volunteer levels seem fine to me. Leads change and that’s a good thing. There’s going to be transition, and that’s fine. 

• DAFT needs a PM in their structure, and it should be incorporated into their structure so that the designer can focus on the artistic side. 

• Some mother fucker towed my god damn Lincoln. That was a dick move. 

• It was a good Flipside. 

Bill: • With respect to XXXXXXXXXX, and XXXX not being the best communicator. We got a phone at Camp Camp this year, and I was so excited that it worked so well. That is some seriously heavy lifting to get that done. 

• To get stuff to grow and scale it’s best through the community rather than the org. 

• I will help XXXX figure out what will help him grow FU telecom in the future. I want to help him, and I want my telephone again. 

Blanche: He needs people to set up a camp for him, with the shade structures and so on, and cook food so he can focus on the phones. 

Prost: The phone was great until we got spam calls. I did find an emergency phone box this year – it was right there by the greeters and I knew what to look for. Kudos to making it more visible. If you paint it more visible might get asshats making prank calls. 

Brently: I wanted to mention things that were already covered, like DAFT is completely overloaded. Might form a subcommittee to review how to help teams like this as human beings can only handle 5 – 7 things at one time. 


• We try to direct leads to make sure they have enough team members and the right structure and support that they need to be successful. We also council them during their endeavor to help them not get overloaded. 

• There were a lot of new leads who had amazing and ambitious ideas of what they could accomplish in the time they had. That means someone can overestimate how much they can do, and our goal is to help ensure no one fails. 

• Some departments have high turnover, with at times getting a new lead every year or so. 

• We also have former leads come and offer help to the new leads. 

Brently: Any time I asked for help, I got it, and I made sure to always ask for it. Thank you to everyone in this room to helped me when I asked. 

RD: The lack of volunteers loading here at the warehouse and loading the trucks out at the land was very challenging and put a huge amount of drain on the leads. The community left a gap and DAFT filled it. 

Breezy: I brought my first piece of burnable art out there, and it went off very well. 

Adam: Copy the AR. 

Breezy: It was very hard to get perimeter team for it, but I got lucky. Hard to get volunteers to do that part, but I’m not sure how to get more people to volunteer for that. 

Tim A: 

• Adding onto what other people said about DAFT, as someone who worked on the build for the effigy I was broken and exhausted. 

• It wasn’t a lack of volunteers, as there would be people showing up and asking to help and the DAFT lead only had a certain amount of bandwidth to give instruction to individual people. There wasn’t always clear direction for everyone there. 

• There is an idea that DAFT leads knew what needed to be done, but they couldn’t always be in charge of it. Need a dedicated project manager. 

Kataluna: So, having a dedicated lead that isn’t a part of DAFT that makes sure DAFT happens? 

Tim A: There is a loose structure within DAFT that changes every year, and it doesn’t seem sustainable moving forward. There is a different lead and a different way of doing things every year – lack of carry-over of knowledge and best practices and how to do them the best way seems to not be happening. Need more structure and consistency year after year. The lack of that structure rather than the lack of volunteers was the biggest issue. 

Wrinn: Thank you very much for your art pieces, and all pieces were cleaned up very well. I didn’t have to worry about it. 

Kataluna: The nature of DAFT, and of it being a new lead whenever it happens, is how things are structured today but there is a ton of guidance there to help the lead. There were also a ton of people trying to help the lead. Don’t think it’s an org issue, it’s just people have specific work styles and vision. If we can see some carry over from this year to next, I think there will be improvement and it won’t be a problem. I don’t know that we need to add onto the DAFT team. 

RD: One of the things we have with our culture, is that we want to separate the real-world from our community. Sometimes we lose that connection to the best practices and high-level things that can help. 

Bill: • I don’t want to wade too much into the DAFT department, because being able to 

organize volunteers is a very specific skill. You can be a lead, and have a certain level of organizing volunteers, and there is value to having someone being able to direct those volunteers on a regular basis. 

• Jack Miller would put on these half day workshops on how to organize volunteers, and I’ve done it professionally and it’s really hard. 

• It’s impossible to be the figure head directing the top-level thing and then also direct the individual contributors to get the work done. 

• Don’t think the org needs to make big changes to DAFT, but maybe part of every proposal is “here is how I’m going to organize this thing or do this piece of it.” 

• The institutional history of this org is deep and long, and folks are willing to share and help. 


• Many times, we have leads that are SMEs, but not great as admins or doing the day to day activities. We encourage people to appoint LTs, and not take on everything yourself. 

• Many times, we don’t have many options for DAFT – some years we only get 2 viable proposals sometimes we only get 1. You go with the strength and weaknesses of those proposals and that lead, and you get an effigy. 

• If someone doesn’t like the way DAFT projects are managed, then put in a proposal. 


• I’m going to disagree with that statement, because sometimes if you are a great manager doesn’t mean you are a great designer, artist, etc. 

• As an artist, I would rather just go out and do something myself than ask somebody for help. 

• Think if we took the same approach to the Rangers as we do DAFT and the new Ranger Lead can run it any way they want; that’s not the case today and wouldn’t be a good idea. 

• As an artist, I think having someone there to run it from an operational standpoint is a good idea. 

Izzi: The artist needs to select that person, so that they will work well together. 

Prost: If someone shows up on church night wanting to know how to use a hammer, and the lead is showing them, then that takes that person away from more critical tasks. 

Kataluna: It isn’t just “here is a hammer” and you go after it. They need instruction. 

RD: I think some structure would be great for DAFT. We don’t have a great way to onboard people and get them up-to-speed. DAFT would benefit greatly from an information table or something to help get people up to speed. 

Motion to close stack by Breezy, Bill seconded. 

CC Calendaring for summer/fall 2019 Prost: Motion to disband the CC (not seconded). Prost got up and captured items on the white board. Topics 

● Review Ticket Window – 8/5 

● Re-examine 3 principles – 10/28 

● Effigy and temple ws/charrette – does the community want to get money together for a temple – 10/7 

● The new digital platform for vol – vol reg system review/input – 10/28 

Definition of an RVs – the LLC should work this out 

● Community input on video for first timers – VC can come and talk about it – 9/16 

● Fall Town Hall Planning – 8/5 

● Fall Town Hall Walkthrough – 9/16 

● Fall Town Hall Afterburn – 9/30 

● How would we respond to FS being postponed or canceled? – 11/9 

We did not have recycling this year again and it was fine. Haven’t heard anything from the community. 

● CC Mixer – 12/9 

● How the warehouse meets community needs – 9/30 

● Land criteria – 11/9 

● Incident FAQs – once in Fall and once in Spring 12/9 

Bill: A few months ago, we had a nice discussion about the process for reporting incidents. I haven’t personally heard about anyone being made uncomfortable, being assaulted etc. 

Kataluna: It usually takes about 2 weeks from now to start hearing about things. 

Problem: The vast majority of what we hear about are things that didn’t happen at the event. 

Bill: Sounds like there is a good time to discuss that later in the calendar. 

Kataluna: Can add it to the list and have it there. We get reports in Spring and Fall. Do it in the fall before the ticket window. 

Izzi: I see a lot of non-CC members here and would like to hear about topics that would be interesting to those members. 

Bill made a motion to close the calendar, Prost seconded. Closed. 

LLC Update Problem: We are an official regional burn, we signed the agreement again. Had a small event recently that you might have heard of. 

AF update Wrinn: Did the event and did a thing. Will get going on doing things again soon. 

Regional Update Clovis: We are an official regional event. Camera girl (Burning Man IT person) is retiring. 

Adam: Beach burn is coming up in 24 days. 

Izzi: There is the soup event coming up soon, and some parents have spoken up and said they would like to do a family friendly burn event. There is a burning parents group on FB. 

Blanche: I work with the rabbit soup folks and can offer to work with them on the parent/family version. 

Clovis: Oblivium just happened. 

Adam: There are 4 regional events the same weekend as flipside. 

Problem: Elemt 11 just happened. Colorado event just happened. 

Bill: Hopefully they had as much fun at their events as we did. 

Izzi: People tuned in KFLIP in South Africa when they were broadcasting during Flipside, and they loved it. 

Bill: There is a regional platform Called Shouting Fire that allows KFLIP to broadcast world- wide during the event. Any other questions about regionals? 

CC business Prost: Going to make another call for CC members somehow. Make a post on the Website which will go out to Twitter, FB, etc. Want to get more diversity in the CC. 

Kataluna: Yeah, almost all white guys over 35 on CC right now. Will put a post out on Face Book to help recruit. 

Gyesika stepped down from the CC. 

Next meeting is Aug 5th. Facilitator: Prost and Bill will stack. 

CC meeting 16 October 2017

Beth, Henry, Darling, Monkey, Princess, Ginger, Monk, Max, Sam, Puzz, Patrick, Kat, Adam, Breezy, Prost, Rabbitt, Wrinn, Amy, Clovis, Izzi

LLC Update

  • Maxine is our new Genesis AF
  • Laser cutter is now working
  • Trigger will be the Laser Safety Officer
  • New smart lock on front door gives us more flexibility for access.
  • There will be a new keypad lock on the toolroom

AF Update

  • Leads noms is going, but is going more slowly than normal. Please hype it.
  • Once that is complete, the leads-selection process will begin in earnest.
  • Really need a new Parking leads.

Regionals Update

  • There will be no GLC in 2018.
  • There are some TEDx-style webinars that BMORG is developing.
  • Myschevia happened. Sounds like it went really well. Beautiful effigy, nice temple.
  • Freezerburn had their ticket sale, and it was a clusterfuck, but not our camel.

Topic: Free vs Abusive Speech (owner: Monkey)

This is a topic solicited by Monkey from the community in response to the question “why aren’t you going to Flipside?” Combined with discussions in the default world around hate speech, it seems like we should have a discussion about it.

Should we create an abusive-speech policy? Should it be different at different places (warehouse vs event vs social media)?

Patrick: What do you think of what the Survival Guide says? Can we improve that? (quotes from “Personal boundaries” section)

Adam: Can you define abusive speech?

Monkey: No. Other organizations have done this to some degree. Other people have defined it and are living with their definitions.

Dahling: What is in the Survival Guide does not enumerate hate speech. And people have engaged in hate speech at Flipside. Should we enumerate this in advance, or deal with it as it happens? Advocates for enumerating in advance.

Prost: What’s in the Survival Guide sounds kind of weak. It talks about boundaries and talking about them, but there are a lot of situations where talking about your boundaries doesn’t work. The policy doesn’t say “don’t do hate speech,” it tells you “as long as no one tells you it’s wrong, it’s not wrong to do hate speech.”

Kat: I like the idea of a policy that goes further than what we have no, but as soon as you draw a line, people will lean right up to it. People can be crappy in a host of different ways without using a vocabulary list.

Patrick: Stephy has brought up the ComicCon code of conduct. Apart from one sentence (“harassing behavior will not be tolerated”), we’re basically there. They don’t enumerate stuff either.

Ginger: Instead of saying “don’t do this,” can we come at it from the perspective of inclusivity, in the sense of making people feel welcome?

Monkey: Online communities have found that loose policies around behavior encourage people to be terrible in those communities, and then other people leave. When people start acting abusive and that behavior isn’t checked, then other people just leave. Especially newcomers. Without formal guidelines, people don’t enforce their own boundaries because it goes against social conventions about rudeness. There are a lot of similarities in our community. There’s a belief that it’s wrong to call people on their bullshit.

Monk: Will never be comfortable around racists or misogynists. But trolling is a huge thing in our community, and that’s fine. We push boundaries in that way.

Adam: Are misogyny and racism just special cases of failure to respect the principle of cooperation? Are they serious enough that even if they are special cases, they need special observances?

Princess: Online communities have moderators. The problems we have are not problems of policy but of enforcement. Most people don’t read the Survival Guide, so they don’t know what to do. Does the community want the enforcers to be more heavy handed?

Dahling: We put a lot of effort into defining who we are as a community. I can imagine a world in which Nazis say they agree to our 3 principles. The only way I can see to get around that is to explicitly say that hate speech is not allowed at the event. Not identifying the problematic behavior allows someone to accuse us of selective enforcement. We don’t want to try to enumerate every group, but we can say that targeting any member of a group for being a member of that group is wrong.

Kat: Racism and misogyny are everywhere, but we can define what our community is about, and we can say that we don’t tolerate any kind of hate speech.

Monkey: If someone plays the self-expression card on me, I have no qualms about playing the accountability card on them. About trolling: the world has moved from the old days of the cacophony society, which pulled carefully crafted pranks that always punched up. Burning Man extended that out to everyone’s sacred cows, but not picking on people. Flipside borrowed that from Burning Man. It extended through our online presence very early on with hateful trolling on our mailing list (which everyone left, so we created another list, and another). But the world has changed, and trolling is now genuine attacks on people’s safety, such as doxxing, swatting, etc. It’s no longer funny. Our community does not generally understand that line. Some people will say “it’s my art,” but that’s not OK, and our community has lost something valuable by not distinguishing between pranks and trolling.

Prost: We need to be cautious with policy when we define the kinds of speech that are not acceptable. And we need to raise this and deal with this as a community, within our theme camps, etc. Deal with them on our own level instead of expecting mom and dad to come to our aid.

Amy: As someone who’s part of a camp that enjoys abusing people consensually, I’ve been talking about this a lot. I enjoy getting salty at the event. After six burns, someone took it too far, and was abusive to a female bartender, but that guy didn’t take them seriously. I like to come from the position of the teachable human.

Clovis: If someone tells me “it’s my art,” art provokes a response, and sometimes the response isn’t pleasant. Community response is an educational tool.

Monk: I’ve been trying to condense what we’ve been talking about here. Education is important. It needs to trickle down through departments, theme camps, etc. We need to identify when trolling is destructive and hurtful. With the intention of malice or with ignorance.

Monkey: A friend at another burn wrote that there was a burning cross as an art project that caused a lot of drama.

Kat: if everyone reacted to crappy speech the same as they do when we see a camera, we wouldn’t have a problem with crappy speech.

Dahling: One of the most effective trolls I ever saw was when French Camp decided to be nice.

Prost: Clarification requested on the burning cross.

Monkey: Simply that it may be worth talking about art.

Amy: There was something similar at Burning Man that was upsetting to a lot of people.

Patrick: What happened was that “heat” burned a sign with their name and the “t” was the last letter standing.

Rabbitt: I’ve seen burners nationwide be jerks. It seems ingrained in the culture.

Sam: Heard the story of someone at Flipside 2010 who crossed someone’s boundaries, the response being someone got on bullhorn threatened her in her camp. Ranger advised her to leave her camp for a while. It seems like we can draw a line somewhere.

Princess: Sounds like there are a lot of people who are passionate about this, but I’m curious if someone wants to put forward a motion.

Kat: We’ve heard from lots of people who don’t want to hear this kind of thing. Is there anyone who considers this a non-issue? [Straw poll: no hands go up]

Puzz: I don’t know the solution for Flipside, but I’ve been cracking down more on the Flipizens group. Now I don’t care about banning assholes, and there’s not a lot of discussion among the group mods.

Prost: Let’s talk about art. We’ve talked about the “my speech is my art” angle. Nothing we’ve said tonight is separate from art. Art doesn’t need to be dealt with separately, and if we address this in the Survival Guide, we should talk in terms of “expression.”

Amy: “Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right” Having the tools is only one part of the solution if I don’t know how to use it. Do we focus too much on self-expression without focusing enough on accountability and cooperation?

MOTION: Write and publish a statement of what is intolerable, that goes beyond self-expression, to violate cooperation and accountability.

[Special stack for motion begins]

Clovis: who will write it?

Monk: How’s this: “Speech or behavior that is abusive, malicious, or non-consensual is not tolerated at Flipside.”

Izzi: I like the direction this is going. I’m not comfortable with saying “…and will lead to eviction.” A lot of the decision-making process is wrapped up in how a person responds when we speak to them. I’d like to continue honing and crafting this.

Dahling: suggests adding this language to Flipside website and Survival Guide.

Izzi: Let’s refer more generally to “normal channels of communication.”

Monkey: Where is this going? Is this a recommendation for the event, or the warehouse, or Flipizens?

Wrinn: How about adding “in our community.”

Prost: I’m troubled by the “non-consensual” part. If I’m playing Jim Jones sermons (hypothetically) for two hours and no one likes it, that’s non-consensual. I could overhear something that wasn’t directed at me that I didn’t consent to. I understand the intent but I think it’s too broad.

Amy: Amend it to say “this community does not tolerate…” Is it a community value or an event value? We could also post it on the burma-shave signs coming into the event.

Dahling: Another thing to think about is bringing the art back in.

Monk: Riffing off of Izzi: “This community does not tolerate abusive or malicious behavior or speech that runs counter to this event’s sustainability.”

Monkey: Especially when we talk about rules, I agree that sustainability is a good metric, but it’s not the sole value. There’s got to be something else, so I’m not comfortable with that as a motivator. Just to clarify, we’re talking about a motion focused on the Survival Guide and other official communications for official AAR events. Once we’ve wrapped this up we can adapt to other venues.

Problem: This body sucks at trying to wordsmith things on the fly. AAR understands the intent, but let’s wordsmith this in a smaller venue and clear it.

Monkey: AMENDED MOTION: that we remand the specific wording of this statement to AAR, which will clear the result with the CC.


[special stack for motion ends]

Ginger: I understand how the non-consensual part is a problem, but it’s also important to recognize there are some areas where it’s important.

Izzi: It’s not malicious or non-consensual if you’re in the Brimstone Society because it’s obvious play.


Problem: We’ve learned over the past few meetings that there can be situations where a participant tells a ranger or other volunteer something and “nothing happens.” If a line volunteer doesn’t address a situation to your satisfaction, you can kick it up the chain of command.

Dahling: One difference between Rangers and Sanctuary is that literally everything goes in Sanctuary’s log. There’s a lot of variation in what Rangers tell Khaki, and maybe we could tighten up on that.

Monkey: MOTION: The CC recommends to Puzz and other Flipizens moderators that they revisit their abusive-speech policies with this discussion in mind.

[new motion stack begins]

Prost: Not comfortable with “recommends” as the CC has no authority over that group.

Clovis: BLOCK. No place making recommendations to someone not part of the official org.

Dahling: It’s worth remembering that all the CC members basically know all the AAR members and know how to get things done, so be gentle with someone who isn’t as connected.

Beth: MOTION: Officially recognize that Puzz went out of his way to come here, that we appreciate what he’s doing, and that we take the Flipizens group seriously.


Izzi: I like that y’all have recommended making a statement. In addition, I would also be comfortable working with CC & community members on crafting a statement to the community that is less official than our official channels. One good place for that would be the Flame.

Monkey: I wanted to talk about the operational part of this, including what Princess mentioned. So that in addition to making a statement in the Survival Guide, there’s the operational side. The CC doesn’t set policy for operations, but it does make recommendations, and we should recommend that operations be more proactive about enforcement. My impression is that we agree that we’ve allowed things to go farther than we like, and we should try to restore balance.

Prost: It’s important that our organization reflect our principles and values that we are trying to express to the community. If we have a CC member or lead who engages in inappropriate speech, then they shouldn’t fill that role. It’s happened before and looks bad for the whole organization.

Izzi: AAR talks with the AFs about what goes in the Survival Guide, so without an extra motion, we can communicate that.

Clovis: There are 4 AFs in the room right now. Dictating that something is an immediate-dismissal is kind of fucked up.

Monkey: Policies and the like are means for preventing bias from influencing your decision, but if you have too many rules, you open yourself up to rules-lawyering and preclude the application of wisdom. Systems that are too fluid tend to amplify the biases of the individuals involved. This is not conscious and is often counter to the stated beliefs of the people that hold the bias. If instead of a Ranger getting to decide whether a situation needs to be escalated, the Rangers could have a set of guidelines, but it’s a set of tradeoffs.

Izzi: we can offer guidelines

Beth: Suggests developing the community statement (alongside the AAR statement) in a subcommittee. Beth, Izzi, and Ginger all interested. Beth will chair.

Old business

  • Scheduling CC retreat: Will set up a Doodle for scheduling some time before end of year.
  • Scribe: Summer Nash has been suggested as a possible scribe. And one other person who doesn’t have a computer.

Next meeting: Oct 30


CC meeting 10 July 2017

In attendance
Monkey, Kati, Breezy, Problem, Izzi, Adam, Henry, Becky, Rabbitt, Kat, Beth, Wrinn, Tina, Sam

LLC Update

Not much news. Slow but steady progress on getting the laser cutter prepared for use.

Regional update

[no RCs present]

Beachside: went really well. There were 214 people who signed in, but as many as 500 who passed through. There were a few thefts. Weather was beautiful. Everyone had a really good time.

About 4200 lb of trash was collected.

AF update

[no AFs present]

Izzi points out that we need to clean up all the stuff lying around post-Flipside. We need everything cleared away before Burning Man load-in.

Stuff returning from Burning Man will have 2 weeks for pick up before it is deemed abandoned.

Discussion topics

Minors at the Warehouse

Burner Explorers is what used to be known as Burner Scouts, which has existed for about 10 years. This was created in the Burning Man community to get kids tied in to the BM volunteer infrastructure.

Becky is working on a local version. Her interest is in figuring out how to connect minors to our departments at Flipside, and enable kids to make use of the Warehouse.

Patrick: We’d like to pattern the warehouse use by minors after the existing approach to minors at the event: the parents are responsible for the kids, and the parents need to accompany the kids.

We need to let the Leads set limits for their departments. We probably won’t have minor firefighters, for example.

Henry: There’s some stuff that kids can do for the effigy, using hand tools, painting, etc, and kids have a different perspective that is valuable.

Kati: My kid can be with me for a lot, but not when I’m on a medical shift, because you don’t know what you’re going to encounter. Her kid is comfortable with rules, but a lot of kids are not. Also, a lot of people are not comfortable with kids at burns at all. I would feel comfortable with kids of 15 shadowing on Safety shifts, but not younger.

Monkey: Different departments have different training/competence requirements, regardless of age. There are plenty of departments where a minor would be able to do the job as well as an adult. Recommends considering expertise rather than age as the criterion for letting people signing up for shifts, and allow parent + kid to sign up for a shift as a single unit.

Izzi: Parents need to accompany their kids at all times, and there are some situations that can arise, e.g., for Ranger shifts, where the parent cannot bring their kid in due to inappropriateness. This means that neither adult nor minor is really filling a slot for that shift. What we’d wind up doing is having a parent + kid ride-along on a Ranger shift. In some departments this would not be an issue. Do not want to tell leads that they need to accept kids, or accept them on specific terms. Daft had specific projects for kids.

Becky: Daft didn’t want any children around the warehouse at all during the last few weeks before the event.

Adam: My concern specifically with Safety departments is that there would need to be different training for minors, which would create extra work for the leads to develop. Given the very small number of minors at the event, this may not be practical.

Beth: Ideas proposed by Austin Burning Parents: Have a child-size work station. Talk to Austin tinkering school. Have safety training for kids.

Kati: We talk about radical self-reliance a lot, but kids are still kids, and there are all kinds of possible issues. When we look at liability questions, we need to ensure the sustainability of the experiment, and sometimes we just need to say No to letting kids do stuff.

Problem: At BRC, the Rangers have one team dedicated to walking around with kids, so they can avoid putting kids into hot situations. So many departments could probably find a way to integrate kids.

Wrinn: I love kids, and I’ve used kids for cleanup. But I get nervous having kids doing stuff sometimes. Kids may get bored and distracted. Can the Lead tell the kid they’re not doing their job when the parent is (should be) right there?

Henry: Safety training can be accomplished by having a separate training at the Warehouse pitched to minors. Kids have a shorter attention span and could be signed up for shorter shifts, and it should be up to the lead.

Tina: If they can’t handle the Safetyside training, they shouldn’t be allowed on shift. There should also be clarification up front that a lead can talk to the parent if the lead is uncomfortable with the kid.

Monkey: Kids can handle a lot of stuff. We don’t need to solve a lot of problems with policy when those problems may not even exist. What recommendation should the CC make to the LLC or AFs about how to handle these situations?

Kati: One thing we need to enshrine is that if a person in a leadership position asks the kid to be removed from the situation, for any reason, the parent needs to respect that. Parents can be touchy about other people criticizing their kids, and we do need to get in front of that.

To potentially take an adult away from a volunteer shift so they can accompany their minor on the minor’s shift could deprive us of another badly needed volunteer.

Becky: Agrees that the presence of kids should be the Leads’ decision. Doesn’t think kids need to go to Safetyside. Thinks that kids would not be filling regular shifts, but doing 2-hour ride-alongs (for example).

Beth: We need to trust the parents and the leads to make this work.

Monkey: This is not a “consent” issue. It’s not “consent” if a Lead say they don’t want minors present, that’s a management issue.

Kati: “Consent” may be the wrong word. Sometimes it can be difficult for a lead or shift lead to talk to a parent about their kid misbehaving.

Monkey: We need a different word. This is a safety or operation-effectiveness issue, not a consent issue.

Beth: Parents can be more defensive of their kids than themselves. Volunteers should have some backup if they need to talk to a parent about their kid.

Monkey: How much is it going to really be a problem that a shift lead has a problem with a kid, and then has a problem with their parent? A couple of times?

Kat: Maybe we should expect that parents have previously volunteered in a given role before their kid does it so they can make an informed decision about their kid doing it.

Becky: Burner Explorers is going to need to have their own rules, which may come into conflict with other rules, parental expectations, etc.

Monkey: We should finish out the discussion of event-related issues.

MOTION: The CC recommends to the LLC and AFs that AFs and Leads legitimately consider any requests to have accompanied minors on volunteer shifts.

Beth: friendly amendment: “Continue to consider” Some Leads have taken minors on.

Monkey: strike “legitimately” As much as anything else, this is to let Leads know that they can consider having minors on shift.

REVISED MOTION: The CC recommends to the LLC and AFs that AFs and Leads continue to consider any requests to have accompanied minors on volunteer shifts.


Warehouse use by minors


  • Are there any concerns surrounding the laser?
  • Can a troop leader be treated as a legal guardian for the purpose of warehouse access?

Becky: Burner Explorers around Austin doesn’t have the kind of legal documentation that would support a troop leader being treated in loco parentis, the parents are still responsible for the kids. At BRC, Burner Explorers is directly under the auspices of Burning Man, and that won’t work here.

Patrick: We’ll talk to the lawyer, but the way this is probably going to come down is that the parents need to take responsibility for their kids.

Becky: Parents will need to be in visual range if their kids are doing something at the Warehouse as far as Burner Explorers are concerned.

Monkey: So are we recommending a change in the policy?

Izzi: No.

Monkey: So should I recommend a motion that the CC recommend the current policy on minors at the Warehouse be continued?

Patrick: That seems a bit redundant.

Additional business

Sam would like to put his name in as a candidate to be a CC member.

Laser cutter

Henry: Will the laser be taking up 1/3 of the room? Will the whole room be locked up to secure the laser?

Patrick: The laser will be pushed up against a wall. It will be hooked up to a password-protected computer to limit access.

Monkey: Why is this a bigger risk than our other various tools?

Patrick: Bodily safety is an issue, and you cannot see the beam. Some metals can reflect light into your eye, or into the laser. PVC can create chlorine gas in the laser.

And we do have policies about how you can use the table saw, for example.

Monkey: So what can the CC do in terms of setting policies here?

Patrick: What if someone wants to use the laser for their business? What if someone is on it 8 hours a day? The issues the CC can address relate to ensuring that the tool benefits the community, not one individual at the expense of the community.

Kat: The CC also has an ambassadorial role to play here, which is another way the CC can help.

Monkey: I would not be too upset if we had a general policy that the use of the warehouse was for non-commercial purposes.

Kat: I don’t know about saying that if you used the warehouse to make something that you cannot sell it ever.

Beth: There could be gray areas here. What if someone wants to work on a commercial project at our space with their own tools? We’ve hosted EAST events at the warehouse. There’s a line between using the Warehouse and abusing it.

Henry: Maybe you could develop a prototype at the Warehouse, but production should be done outside the Warehouse.

Izzi: What we’re talking about is fairness of use. We already need to schedule use of the Warehouse. I’m wondering if it is fair, or desirable, or abhorrent to schedule use of the laser. As long as everyone gets access to it that wants it is fair.

Kat: Many of our community members don’t have access to tools. Making it harder for them to get access to tools might be meddlesome. We don’t want to be standing in front of the laser with a clipboard interviewing people about how they’re using the laser.

Henry: We already have some policies relating to this in the Warehouse policies.

Izzi: That’s true for WH use, but not for specific tools. So the question is whether the laser is a special tool that would merit special handling.

Kati: I anticipate this tool will get a lot of attention. If there’s space, then it’s no problem.

Problem: I don’t think we’ll be interrogating people. We’ll know abuse when we see it. In the past, AAR has been comfortable allowing community resources being used as an incubator for art, including commercial art. Sky Candy is one example. So I don’t have a problem with some commercial use, but where do y’all come down on this?

Henry: Prototyping is fine. Commercial use is another thing, and they should find another way. We should always encourage art whenever possible.

Beth: is trying to write an announcement about the laser that reflects the community’s interests and the principles

Monkey: Put a sign on the laser that says “don’t hog the laser.”

Adam: Let’s not make a rule until we need a rule.

Problem: Just as a cautionary tale: both Hackerspace and Tech Shop have had people get into fistfights over people going 10 minutes over their laser time allotment.

Monkey: Motion to recommend the first thing we cut on the laser is a sign saying “Don’t make me make a rule.”

Other business

Town Hall producer

Not enough CC members here. Let’s find a willing producer on list.

Next meeting: July 24

Not Adam

CC meeting 12 June 2017

CC Meeting: 12 June 2017

In attendance
Sam, Rabbitt, Tina, Kai, Wrinn, Turtle Bunny, Xander, Beth, Amy, Adam, Henry, Problem, Breezy, George, Clovis, Prost, Bonobo, Doug, Katherine Baumann-Paap (in spirit)

LLC Update

  • We bought a laser. We still need to add ventilation and other stuff, so it’s not ready to use yet. It’ll be in the small-projects room. We’ll be working out a system to ensure people can use it without breaking it.
  • Flipside happened.
    • We sold 3017 tickets, 2870 tickets actually got used.
    • Parking on the other side of the road worked pretty well.
    • We did get a complaint from the county that it was possible to see into the event where the privacy fence dipped but the road didn’t
    • No complaints about new layout.
    • Fewer safety-related incidents than usual. There was the crazy windstorm right before the effigy burn, but we weathered that OK.
  • Volunteer-appreciation party is coming up.
  • Old radio tower is going to be sold, if anyone wants it.


What was the no-show rate?
5% no-show rate is down from the past two years. Flake-out rate for mailing in ticket requests was down to about 11% on the first round of ticket requests, but about 30% for the second round.
How was volunteering follow-through?
We don’t collect statistics on that consistently. Anecdotally, some departments where we don’t usually see flake-outs did have some, and we weren’t really prepared for that.
Do we have a count on first-timers?
No. We don’t have a reliable way to track it. We can look at new accounts on the website, but lots of returning participants create a new account every year.
With the high flake-rate on the second round, could that have been people just taking the quiz for fun?
Maybe, but that’s based on the number of people who actually generated requests after passing the quiz.

AF Update

Still haven’t had the AF debrief, so we don’t have all the stories on Flipside ready. Neither of the AFs present have any horror stories to report.

Cleanup update

Six red spots on the moop map

  • Fire was left burning in Corral Monday night
  • Safety HQ left 2 trash bags behind that animals got into
  • Camp 319 spray painted the grass
  • Camp 209 left glitter behind
  • A porto-potty had a closed 5-gallon bucket left in it

Overall, participants did a damn good job on LNT.

Regionals Update

  • Soak just happened, Midburn just happened. Oblivium. Apogaea. PDF.
  • AAR will probably be signing the Regional Event Use Agreement.
  • Beach cleanup coming up July 7.
  • Almaburn has two new LLC members, and a date for the next event: April 5-9.


Do we need to sign the agreement every year?
It’s complicated. In the old days, the RC signs off on the event. A few years ago, BMORG started seeking directly with the event itself. The first draft of the agreement was pretty bad, which led to an uproar. AAR has been negotiating with them for 3 years, and we’re pretty close. The idea is that it will be an annual agreement though.

Discussion Topic



  • Recycling. Let’s talk about it earlier. (Wrinn)
  • Leave No Trace (Xander)
  • What should we do for Flipside’s 20th? (George)
  • Warehouse use and equipment use; also use by minors (Beth)
  • Fall Town Hall
  • Town Hall wrapup
  • Revisit road shows (Izzi)
  • Free vs abusive speech (Monkey)
  • Mentoring solutions for leaders (Kat?, Clovis)
  • Gifting, decommodification, and corndogs (Prost)
  • Photography & privacy (add Scott Kentros)
  • Burner Explorers (Becky)
  • Seek new CC members and scribes
  • Is Flipside a white people thing? Ticketing policies, event advertising strategies, and other organization stances  as related to diversity of participants 
  • Public sexuality and sex (from a community discussion around recent events)
  • Community perception of the LLC (aloof, inaccessible, holding different values than the community, arrogant – obviously not all community members have these feelings – is this a problem, and can we solve it if so) 
  • What is the cc for? (not why was it created. What purpose is it intending to serve now, and is it doing so?) Some important LLC decisions are intentionally not being communicated to the community. This is causing some bad blood. Can important decisions be broadcast to the community without too many identifying details?
  • what’s in a theme camp, and why are there so dang many of them?  (been a while since I’ve had this discussion, right?)

Date assignments. Owners shown in [brackets]:

  • Jun 26: Seek scribes & CC members; Recycling [Bonobo]; LNT [Turtle Bunny, Xander]
  • Jul 10: Warehouse use, equipment use, use by minors [Beth]; Burner Explorers; Choose Town Hall producer
  • Jul 24: 20th anniversary [George]
  • Aug 07: Town Hall Planning; Gifting, decommodification, and corndogs [Prost]
  • Sep 11: Town Hall walk-through; Photography & privacy [Amy]
  • Sep 25: Town Hall wrapup; Revisit road shows [Izzi]
  • Oct 02: What is a theme camp [Monkey]?; LLC perceptions & transparency [Monkey]
  • Oct 16: Free vs abusive speech [Monkey]
  • Oct 30: Diversity/outreach [Monkey]; Is Flipside too white? [Monkey]
  • Nov 13: Public sexuality [Monkey]
  • Nov 27: Mentoring [Kat/Clovis]; What is the cc for? [Monkey]
  • Dec 11: Mixer
  • Jan 8: Calendaring

Next meeting

Turtle Bunny

CC Meeting 17 October 2016






ATTENDEES: Clover, Prost, Kat, Monkey, Turtle Bunny, Beth, Henry, Problem,Dahling, Cooper, Chainsaw, Susanne, Breezy, George, Switch, Wrinn, Misty

TOPIC: Flipside Principles


MOTION: Acknowledge Burning Man’s 10 principles as foundational in the creation of ours in places LLC feels appropriate.  MOTION PASSED

MOTION: We make time at CC retreat to write up behaviors and values of our community, from looking at the principles we have.  MOTION PASSED

AAR LLC Update

  • Getting a new TV!

Regionals Update

  • ‘Engulf’ is the new regional is Kentwood LA. 300 burners to start, among org. longtime flipizens, they took some notes from Flipside. They worked hard to create a solid foundation for future burns. Aside from a few circumstances out of their control. Huge territory, lots of pines and skanky ponds.

Area Facilitators Update

  • 1st real LLC AF meeting of the year. Put together permanent calendar.
  • Leads nominations close OCT. 28th
  • What time will there be notifications?
  • Nov. 2nd (before thanksgiving holiday)
  • Do we intend to post the calendar someplace so we can all see it?
    • Limited visibility, appropriate dates will be made public
    • IF you need to see certain dates bring it up and we’ll talk about it

Flipside Principles (Prost)

  • Ten Principles of Burning Man
    • Radical inclusion
    • Gifting
    • Decommodification
    • Radical self-reliance
    • Radical Self-expression
    • Community Effort
    • Civic Responsibility
    • Leave no trace
    • Participation
    • Immediacy
  • Duplicates present. Distilled down to 6.5 principles and then a further step to 3 Principles at Flipside
  • Principles of Flipside
    • Self expression – creative self expression in artistic creation and so
    • Accountability – hold ourselves resp. for our own needs
    • Cooperation – participants work together to mediate and dissolve conflicts and to create bigger things than anyone could do alone.
  • 6 principles we’re worried about:
    • Radical inclusion
    • Gifting
    • Decommodification
    • Leave no trace
    • Participation
    • Immediacy
  • Many burns are adding the 11th principle of consent in the mix, we should include that to go over it
  • Went to a really cool work shop on principles. Flipside was her 1st burn, and didn’t realize that Flipside only had 3 principles. One thing that sticks out to me is that because their so general we cant find a good barometer to gauge. How do we continue to challenge ourselves to uphold these. There are descriptive rather than prescriptive. More like here’s what were doing and this is our compass that we abide by. Lets  get more specific. Its easy to dismiss the intricacies. Where would consent fall in those 3 principles. This is a good conversation to have because if I go to another burn where they don’t have principles, is this really a burn? Ethos. Its what makes us unique.
  • Immediacy- we seek to over come barriers..
  • Our principles are very broad, Burning Man’s principles are more restrictive. More like “rules.”
  • How do you provide visualizations for our principles in action how can we show the growing community what we mean? There’s some complexity there and I don’t know what the answer is, but I think there’s an educational aspect missing. This is the challenge. We could do descriptive or umbrella everyone.
  • The principles have always been descriptive, not prescriptive. Back in the day, leave no trace meant more…We show up with immediacy and we leave without a trace to question almost if it ever even happened…3 principles are not enough. They could be applied in a church group or boy scout troop. I think 3 is just too strong. You can’t always respect the 10 principles the same all the time. You have to make a trade off. Our 3 principles allow us to not have to make that trade off. Another thing I like is that I can remember ALL of them! I’ve spoken to Burning Man employees who cant remember all 10! While immediacy and decommodification aren’t blatant.
  • A Burning Man guy calls the 10 principles “guidelines.” 3 points make a place…10 make an oddly shaped structure. It doesn’t have to be descriptive. Of everything that is our  culture. The important thing is that these set up the basis to have that type of conversation.
  • I disagree with it. Its more fundamentally a thing. What do we want the principle to do? You can get broad and abstract. WE don’t want to change anyone’s behavior…more of an identity type of thing. One of the reasons organizations write down mottos and principles is to put them down into an operational thing. If you don’t know what to do, go look at the principles.
    • Boundary between descriptive and prescriptive
    • Vagueness vs specificity
    • This is who we want to be, this is who we want you to be to…If you want to be like us change yourself to fit our aspirational principles
    • Specificity makes it easier for people to adjust to the principles. Distilling it down to 3 statements on who we are is easier than 10…again, it depends on what we’re trying to do with them.
  • How did we end up with 3 instead of 10? In between 10 and 3 are 6.5.. The main principle is genuine self exp. Fewer rules are better. Photography and videography effects on immediacy of the experience. Ice sales, etc.. Why is that a rule? The 10 principles didn’t make sense in discussion as principles…they are more like rules or guidelines. In 2008 when all the 6.5 stuff was going on, in 2010 we decided upon the 3 principles. They encompass all the things Burning Man started and the 6.5 Flipside came up with.
  • We wanted principles and not rules. We wanted a frame work to not make it so strict. We have by-laws that are general,   we have policies and procedures that are more specific. Having 3 principles makes it more flexible and elegant. More open for interpretation.
  • I think we have run into a real issue with identity. There’s probably some utilitarian systems that don’t include accountability and responsibility. On some level saying who we are is like saying who we are in a way other people aren’t. If you have a generalized thing that describes what everyone is about, people wont understand our true culture. One thing to think a bout while we’re building, how do we tell people who we are.
  • Is there something that were lacking in our expression with these 3? Checks and balances. If we had a bunch of trash in the camp sites, we probably didn’t communicate LNT well enough. Are we looking at symptoms that are leading us to think we’re not being clear enough with our ethos? Do we do check and balances on if we’re covering all 3 things? For me as a new comer, I was excited to know what made those events different. Are we encouraging 1st timers to have an experience? Nuance possibility of things when at a burn, its overwhelming. Its nice to have reins. Are we admitting that we accept the 10 principles as our foundation of the  principles? Are we still connected to that or are we just making our 3 our own? What makes us different? The principles. Are we expressing that and is it being respected?
  • In my opinion the 10 lay out the frame work that defines us as a participant created event. As a participant, when I started burning we had the 10 principles. At some point along the way there were 3. Its good to have the community discussing this. What’s the timeline for the transition?
  • The 10 principles articulated in 2003. My first year was 97 at black rock. The 2 things they stressed were participation and community. 97- early 2000’s. In many ways it came out of Larry(?) thinking of what makes them unique. It became a yard stick, without it how would you know? There was a big community discussion about burning man turning into a franchise. Burning man perspective, it comes down to “is our behavior adhering to the 10 principles?” Our 3 are a great umbrella but it doesn’t provide enough guidance. Maybe self reliance rather radical self responsibility. There always a discussion…what’s the 11th principle? Maybe we should reconsider revising the statement?
  • Are the 10 vs 3 mutually exclusive?  Can we in cooperate the 10 into the 3. Can we use them to more clearly define the 3 principles. If we adopt that mindset then its clear to me that adding in consent would fit under accountability. That’s how we can address these issues in a very specific way. We can use them as a tool
  • I think looking at the 6 things, I don’t see in our principles. If I look at the other 4, they aren’t rules but they are an important part of our community. Its hard for newbies to understand what’s going on otherwise. I think gifting would be hard to fit under one of our 3. If we can’t find a spot under the 3 principles then we might need to look at a revision.
  • I hate the 10 principles…10 commandments. However I think we lost something massive when we went from 10 to 3. It what our social norms are, how can newbies know what community their getting into? Social Norms. I learned tonight, leave no trace. Loved hearing about where that came from. I think we’ve lost somethings, too generic. Is it semantics? Concept behaviors, these example of behaviors…expanding it might be the answer.
  • I think that building a list of actions that can come from those and the survival guide. Beneficial to have on website and survival guide…these are somethings or actions that our principles might lead to.
  • Our principles might not be different enough to differentiate us…self expression does. Radical is an extreme word, maybe use accountability.
  • Something I dislike is not following the principles. Burning Man decommodification…sell coffee. Immediacy…art from burning man to go out into the real word. Their photo policy sucks. The 10…compromise their principles. Gifting is a guideline. We don’t define what a gift is. We could talk about adding that but is gifting what makes our event what it is? Festivals are starting to sound like us. That might be a signal to differentiate ourselves and change our language.
  • Principles provide umbrellas for us. Who we are and what we do. What I want is for us to have a list of descriptive elements of what we do. We throw events where there’s no vending. We do sell Ice…we have been doing this for a long time…its not a principle but the ‘what we do things are descriptive.’ Having a list of what we do…descriptive list of things we have observed our events being. We don’t have to have the same list for every event. We can change them to be more appropriate. As long as we make sure that none of these ‘What we do’ statements doesn’t go against one of our principles. It would be best if, for everything we say we do, we draw a line back to some principle. Wrinn and switchs’ idea…I don’t believe that the 10 are divisible into the 3. They are aspects of our 3. Lots of layers there…I don’t think consent should be stuffed into the accountability bucket. 3 principles provide a great foundation for us, we can still have a list of things, perhaps we don’t have to number it. We could potentially take things off the list and not leave a numbered hole.
  • Beliefs and actions. Good idea. If you say this is how we apply these principles. Helping is something that distinguishes us from Burning Man. Could say that’s gifting. Communal effort. I feel that’s what makes this community special. Everyone is a helper.
  • I am sitting here looking at the website. The website is our outside voice .Most people don’t look at survival guide unless they’re going. Keeping it at 70,000, to say there is no way to allow vending there, is kind of crazy. They want to put peoples art into the world because that’s how the artists make their money.
  • So I’m looking at survival guide. 1st burn Flipside 2010. I didn’t get a survival guide, I went on the website. I didn’t know about gifting till the Friday after we got there. I was utterly in disbelief. After going to Flipside I like the idea of having the 3 to give people an idea. Reference burning man but we’re smaller. Having our 3 principles with the break out stuff on the website. I wouldn’t be able to remember to 10 if I was having a conversation.
  • Consent. Self Expression is offered as a gift to others. I’m gonna pick on gifting…We talk about this as an experiment of a gift economy but if we’re not describing that as a principle then how is it getting through? When you volunteer, build theme camp, it’s a gift. What’s the most important thing? We’re falling short in describing a few things in this puzzle we’re putting together. I came across this because I went to show someone and it wasn’t there. Education…hey look! This is part of this!
  • Further point on gifting. Self-expression Is a form of gifting…that’s how generic the triad is. The thing I want to talk about, noticed a couple times about principles being descriptive vs prescriptive. There’s no advertising, decommodification…event not based on money transactions.
  • Fast food commercial used Burning Man to sell. For Flipside, how have I seen this manifest in my own personal experience. How dies that change when we do a town hall? How likely am I to take a teachable moment in any of these places where our community meets. When someone has not gotten the memo. People clearly don’t know if they drop a cig on the ground…are we evaluating a deficiency in our expression and sharing of our principles? Also, by not stating clearly that we value certain principles, are we not owning them in a way? Does that imply a lack of value because these 3 are not specific enough. How do we deal with these things in action? Are we expecting a level of education on these principles? How do we use them as tools and not weapon. Participant got made fun of for lack of costuming…that is the antithesis of our principles. IS there a lack of expression of these expectations?

MOTION: Acknowledge Burning Man’s 10 principles as foundational in the creation of ours in places LLC feels appropriate.

  • Do we need to base all of our principles off of Burning Man? You can go to each website and see for yourself. We don’t need to connect the dots for people.
  • Are our principles Burning Man principles? Is our comm. Buring Man comm.? Cultural divide, there is a difference in principles. Saying we’re inspired by Burning Man is one thing…to say the 3 are a distillation of the 10 is another. What are we now? I feel like there is a distinction.
  • False equivalency that if we do this one comparison, we have to do these other 30 things. I think this motion is for the 3 principles. I think all of these are our principles even if we don’t spell them out. These things are compatible, not in conflict.
  • Ex: Whenever looking at 3 principles on website, I see you’re looking at the 3, did you know these are based on the 10 from Burning Man?
  • Our principles follow us we for all things all year round. We do a good job of abiding by our principles, not Burning Man. We aren’t living the 10 year round, we are living the 3.
  • Recap the motion.
  • We’ve moved beyond that.
  • Suggestion. You’ve never heard this in a CC…why not just give the explanation of how we got to the 3, a history of where we’ve come from.


MOTION: We make time at CC retreat to write up behaviors and values of our community, from looking at the principles we have.

  • We aren’t sure what we want to say…enough evolution has come, been with 3 for a while, reevaluate what we want them to say. We need to take some time to decide where those lie now. Moving this to a retreat makes more sense with more time allotted.
  • I don’t think we can sit in this room and word smith something. I am wary to have this discussion outside of the community. Do we explore a different format? WE have 4 non CC members here. I would like to see the community more involved. We can have this talk again, are we really gonna make progress at the retreat?
  • Community principles expressed in our event, historically is to facilitate community. I agree, maybe there’s a better way…there’s a cognitive dissonance between old and new participants.
  • Idea behind my motion is a list…things like gifting, decommodification. So when we bring this to the community we have something to offer. That’s why I suggest a basic list at the retreat so we can encourage a larger group of people to give feed back. Emphasize this info at the mixer. These are behavior/values our principles do…so people have a clear idea of what to expect.
  • Opposed to 2 sets of principles. They are for the community. And AAR…we’re broken if we do that. WE cant run AAR and the year round community. Can’t function on 2 sets. I like the fact that the current 3 are year round. Anything else we add needs to be just as cohesive.
  • CC retreat, discussion of Flipside and potentially separate and with burner culture. Purpose of clarification and understanding of where our next steps are. I don’t feel comfortable making recommendations on our culture at CC retreat. We should keep it to CC business. It’s one of those things that’s better to have the conversation first and then ask the community. Sounds like a great place to have that discussion.
  • Simplified: I would like to put on the CC agenda a further discussion of Flipside and burner cultures and values at the retreat.
  • There’s only so many of us who can show up. The flip side of that, effective communication with community at large is ongoing problem. Best suggestion, surveys? Lots of displaced info on FB.
  • That’s an issue. The reason that I don’t want to have this discussion at CC retreat: the community isn’t present statistically and uninvited. If we’re gonna do something where people aren’t invited its because its so involved that our venue doesn’t work for it. It’s a means for us to prep discussion and not actually the policy discussion.
  • Discuss at retreat without coming up with hard solutions.


  • 4th principle- AGENCY. Idea that setting ourselves apart from other places . One of the things that’s really special is the idea that if you want to be in charge of things you can, if you want to make meaningful decisions you can. You have agency at our events and we value that highly. We try not to make rules to not limit peoples agency. We specifically go out of our way not to do that. Do-ocracy. Agency is important, to take action and do stuff for yourself is important to us. The biggest difference of doing to a rave or a dance party at Flipside is I  helped build the dance party.
  • There’s a lot of stuff that we value that isn’t reflected in the 10. You wouldn’t come up with consent per say. But we have a paragraph on accountability. Avoidance of unnecessary rules. You can derive that from our principle but not explicit. Do-ocracy comes out of something else, AAR’s 3 purposes. I like monkeys idea, few broad philosophical statements and then the things that grow out of those main points. I support that approach.
  • I’m on a branding/marketing kick. Bigger problem of marketing our principles to people. The cream of our crop can’t remember! Being able to live in the year round principles…we need to somehow make these memorable for people.
  • 10 or 3 are descriptive. Don’t worry about backing ourselves into a corner. If we brought everything we needed we’d be islands of people who had everything we need. Not to get hung up on ideals…every event goes this way? Year round? Maybe there’s some things that are more lax.
  • I’m fine with not living up to one principle if we are picking up on another principle. Our principles are a triangle…sometimes you have to give on one for another to make it work.
  • Just because you do something that’s not in line with a principle doesn’t mean your against it. Unfortunately money is the way the world goes round. It would be a financial disaster to include ice prices in the tix cost. Blind tiger wasn’t radically inclusive, you had to earn it. There’s give and take. If you choose to have a fund raiser, you’re doing it to raise money to gift.


CC Business

  • CC Retreat
    • Check your email. 12 so far confirmed. Staying in a Villa. We can add people to bring our cost down. Happening in a month.
    • How can we pay you back?
    • Pay cash, Paypal, etc. Not getting enough email responses.
  • Old Business
    • Reschedule volunteer recruitment and retention
    • Confirming member status for Sparky.
    • Does anyone know if Kate is on sabbatical or stepped down?


TOPICS: Recycling; Accountability


STACK: Pixie